Just saying

Posted by hobsonschoice1 on June 1, 2010 – 2:24 pm

Just going through some posts and a couple jumped out at me.

One was from The Boot about how there has been outside negativity about Cincinnati sports dating back to the old days of the Reds and this: “Do any of you out there have even the slightest bit of respect for the Yankees? I didn’t think so and those who do, in the words of WC Fields.. Go away..You bother me.

BOOT: As a guy who still vomits when he sees Johnny Bench’s opposite field double into the corner off Bill Lee to open the top of the ninth of Game Two in ’75, I have to disagree.

At least in my world the Reds were always highly-regarded. They were the epitome of class, execution, organization. Cold, hard killers. Professional assassins. They were the Dodgers for that generation of the late ’60s, all the ’70s, and a sliver of the ’80s.

I think they took a huge hit in that department during the Schott era, but it is coming back.  Slowly. Hard to miss with a guy like Jocketty.

As for the Yankees, sorry to bother you.

They turn my stomach, but I’ve got a lot of respect for Jeter, Rivera, Posada. True professionals that I enjoy watching play the game even if they kill me. Just like Roy White, Chris Chambliss, and Ron Guidry back in the day.

Of course, I couldn’t stand the rest. And watching this current crop handle itself, led by the juvenile A-Rod, a guy that will never learn how to act on the field, it is like watching a bunch of Knothole kids when they win.

But I do respect the Big Three and the team as a whole. I respect doctors, too, but I hate going to them.

TEPID:  Your post about Robert Geathers’ declining stats was the inspiration for my Sunday column about the dangers of getting married to individual stats when it comes to football. It is why you are putting Geathers and Andre Caldwell on the bubble.

Then I saw your follow-up with this line: “Individual stats when totaled define a good offense and defense; they are not meaningless.”

But in the years you have Geathers declining, the total defensive rank has risen from 27 to 12 to 4 in the NFL:  Individual stats are meaningless when not put in the context of scheme and personnel.

The stats don’t tell you that last year Geathers was coming off microfracture knee surgery, a major procedure. And they don’t tell you because of the injuries to Peko and Odom, he rarely came off the field. His teammates have so much respect for him because they knew he was hurting and yet he took every snap he could because there was no one else.

The stats also don’t tell you that he’s played a slew of different positions and played different roles over the past three seasons. He started at SAM backer for a month in 2007. He’s played both ends, he’s played inside, he’s played a little nose tackle. His versatility allows them use some 3-4 principles out of a 4-3 base.

And the stats don’t tell you what a stolid, silent leader he’s been. He arrived at age 20, is going into his seventh season, and gives them stability to go along with his versatility.

Yeah, you wish he’d had some more sacks after those 10.5 in ’06. But he’s also in a different role. Back then he was coming off the bench on third down. Now he’s always on the field.  I’m sure Marvin would like more tackles from him, but he gladly took his leadership and toughness last year. To me, Geathers is   the type of player that shows numbers can’t always compute to football production.

Geathers is simply a good, tough, solid player that does a lot of things well. No way is he a bubble guy.

You’ve got a point with Caldwell. He makes the team, but he’ll have his hands full.

Again, I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in your stats. What were they in the first half of the season when he had a vertical threat on the field in Chris Henry? And you can’t compare Caldwell to Houshmandzadeh. It was a different pass offense with different personnel. Housh had Henry, Caldwell had Laveranues Coles. Enough said.

Got a stat for game-winning TDs in last 22 seconds against division foes?

I think he’s going to be OK, but, yeah, he’s going to have to grind it with some other guys to make it. At the very least he’s got to prove he can hold on to the ball.

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Posted in Hobson's Choice | 14 Comments »

14 Responses to “Just saying”

  1. By rdrose10 on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    Regardless of Caldwell’s ability to catch balls in clutch situations, it was clear in the offseason ( as well as the draft) that the bengals were looking for depth at the WR positon. Brining in Jones, Bryant, and Shipley ( Caldwell’s position) the organization made a statement that the current recievers werent getting the job done. After hearing about Simpsons recent progression, its safe to say Caldwells in trouble, and his career in cincy may just be over soon.

  2. By hobsonschoice1 on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    You’re jumping the gun there. Jones and Simpson have a long way to go with this coaching staff while Caldwell is heading into his third season in the system with the ability to play all three spots. His two fumbles have opened the door for a roster battle, but “his career in cincy may just be over soon,” may just be a bit premature.

  3. By 2ndboot on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    I see your point.. I’m of course seeing how I view the Reds and Bengals from one fans perspective and not seeing it from fans of other cities perspectives.
    My grandfather was a ball player and did play minor league and barnstormed for many years, but again, that was back during the turn of the last century and before mass communications. Though I know as fact he played I still have yet to find a single stat anywhere for him.
    Both teams now carry the stigma of losing for years and anyone expecting everyone not fans of either team to suddenly just shower them with respect is dreaming. It’s more begrudging respect… “If I have to…” kind of thing.
    That said, of course I have respect for individual players, but the Yankees as a team? I have to say I would sooner eat my dogs shed fur for dinner as be a Yankee fan or a Steelers fan for that matter. While I’m at t how about I throw in the Dodgers and now Cards for good measure not to mention all of Pittsburghs teams since time began.
    What can I say? I’m a diehard or maybe (I can’t think of the word I’m looking for) Reds and Bengals respector.. It’s breed into me since long before birth. 😉
    Good post though and it does open a few eyes I hope.

  4. By 2ndboot on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    Another thought along yours about doctors.. Kind of like cops. I respect them, but in no way do I want to be on the receiving end of what they do for a living if I can help it and have been a time or two. 😉
    Same can be said of a defensive line.. I love watching them, but sure wouldn’t want those guys tackling me. Of course at my age and weight they could just look mean at me to do the trick and I would surrender. .LOL

  5. By The Takeover on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    So you cut a guy that has been serviceable and also made big game winning catches against division foes for a guy that has looked good in OTAs one offseason? That’s not going to happen. I see Jones as the guy that doesn’t make the team he looked very slow in the videos.

  6. By btelliott on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    while i don’t think caldwell is on the bubble, i think he is expendable and the only receiver we can afford to lose who would garner a decent return in trade. thoughts?

  7. By carson9 on Jun 1, 2010 | Reply

    Geathers stats have been in deep decline, but he has been on the recieving end of double teams for several of those years. If you look at clips from last season, Odom had 1 on 1 the majority of the time, and Geathers was held up in the double team. He is a major asset to our improving defense the same way Casey Hampton in PItts is. Even though Geathers plays the End in 4-3 instead of the NT in the 3-4, the results are similar. Take a look at the GB game. It was Odom (5 sacks) getting single man coverage, and Robert Geathers taking the brunt of the Offensive Line. Definately Keep the Man!

  8. By rdrose10 on Jun 2, 2010 | Reply

    Hobsonschoice.. I get what your saying, I mean I thought from an overall standpoint caldwell did a decent job last year given the personel that surrounded him. With that being said, Jones and Simpson doin have some learning to do but your forgeting the fact that they brought in Shipley (wes welker clone) to fill in that slot position. Caldwell has proven he can be a successful “fill in” or third reciever in this league.. hints why I believe he has to much value to simply just sit on the sidelines and wait around for another shot. If he doesnt see the field, hes going to leave. He does offer good trade value, and the fact that he is going to be less involved in this offense, cant sit well with him.

  9. By theredbengal on Jun 2, 2010 | Reply

    Geoff, I think it’s pretty cool that you read our responses, however silly or ridiculous they may seem, and grab some ideas for your next story (the stats one a few days ago).

    I was down on Geathers last year, but had no idea he was coming off microfracture knee surgery. Knowing that, now I believe he had a solid year. As for Caldwell, I give him a pass in regards to production later in the year, but not on the costly fumbles at Oakland and San Diego (his almost 20 yard fumble backwards). He’s on the bubble, no doubt, but so is every other receiver sans Ocho and Bryant.

  10. By hobsonschoice1 on Jun 2, 2010 | Reply

    So we can all agree that Caldwell has to crank it up and the only heroes in the OTAs are the kids with the water bottles. Let’s wait for Georgetown.

    You’ve got to be careful about those videos too. The stuff Marvin is letting the cameras shoot is a step up from mild stretching. Jones is running past people out there even if it is just in a straight line. His route running isn’t as fast, but his ability to get vertically quickly has got to be a factor in his favor.

    It is a good call, The Ocho and Bryant as untouchables at receiver, with Caldwell and Shipley the qualifying leaders in the clubhouse for the 3-4 spots before Gtown’s first tee.

    During a discussion with an NFL scout at the league meetings back in March, he told me that the majority of Odom’s eight sacks last year came inside one-on-one over the guard, much like the Giants use Jason Tuck. They’ll occasionally try to use Geathers in that role but now that Dunlap and Atkins are also here as inside rushers should take more of a burden off Geathers in the nickel.

  11. By hudepohldey on Jun 2, 2010 | Reply

    Hey Hobanero! thanks for all the great info, sir!

    I’m really looking forward to the pass rush combinations in 2010. I know rookies only give so much, but Carlos Dunlap seems blazing fast for his size. Could you see him getting in on the 3-4 schemes you’ve been writing about? With 4.7 speed, and apparently playing MIKE backer at Florida albeit rarely, I think Zimmer could do some nasty stuff with Los and Michael Johnson and Geathers on the field at the same time!

    Thanks Geoff,

  12. By rdrose10 on Jun 2, 2010 | Reply


    Seems like coaches are moving our players all around our defensive line/linebackers positions.. Johnson playing at SAM and with the emergence of Dunplap and Geno, as well as the return of Otom how do you see our defense ending up when its all said and done?

    Obviously we have no discussion about whos playing corner, and Ray and Rivers are locked in their positions, but other than that it seems even our safety position is up for grabs.

  13. By mwindle1973 on Jun 4, 2010 | Reply

    Good write up on Geathers. I wish people could appreciate him more. He’s not a sack artist. He’s a balanced DE. IMO he’s our best run stopping DE. It’s not all about tackles and sacks. He can take his man on and run the play down the LOS with ease. A lot of times he’s taking the TE on at the same time too.

    I’ve noticed that his playing weight seems linked to results. We want him at 275-285 lbs. He played at 275 last year. When he had 10.5 sacks he played at 265 lbs. And he doesn’t look natural at 275-280 like Odom does he carries a lot in his thighs and abdomen.

    2 question though. Would we be better served to leave him at a lower weight? and WHy have they never used him on the weak side at RDE.?

  14. By whodey2010 on Jun 5, 2010 | Reply

    I think it’s absurd to say The Ocho is untouchable. I love Chad, but do you really think that if Dan Snyder called and offered the same package he did 3 years ago, two first rounders, the Bengals wouldn’t jump on it? Remember that his value the next year was nothing. I know it’s not likely, but IF it did happen, we’d be even more dumb than we were 3 years ago.

    And am I the only person that remembers that we passed on DeSean Jackson for Jerome Simpson? I don’t care how well he’s doing now, I think him and Cosby are the odd men out. I just wish he could’ve been where he’s at now last year. I really wanted him to have a chance, since the Bengals drafted him as T.J.’s heir apparant. It would’ve been nice for the fans to see what the organization saw in him.

    And finally, I think the D-Line is where the toughest competition is. With Fanene, Rucker, and MJ able to line up at different positions, it will be interesting to see how it shakes out. I don’t see us cutting a second round pick(Dunlap), so one of the 3 forementioned has to go, unless it’s one of the incumbent starters(Geathers or Odom.) And with Tank, Sims and Peko, I’d imagine Orien Harris is the odd man out for Atkins, which is half disappointing because Harris is the only player on this team representing my favorite college(The U!) But I’ll take the trade off for the talent “Taz” brings.

    I haven’t said this for almost 23 years, but I really believe we WILL win the Super Bowl this year……If the passing game is what I think it will be.

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