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Stalemates

Posted by hobsonschoice1 on March 10, 2011 – 2:05 pm

Palmer

The Carson Palmer Question is a lot like the negotiations for a new collective bargaining agreement.

Stalemate.

And no one seems to be going on the record, but anonymous sources keep driving the story.

Now that a lockout is looming in less than 30 hours, there are stories every 30 minutes because the deadline is getting crunched again. Deadlines in the NFL are crash dummies.

The CP Question isn’t as urgent with the CBA crisis freezing offseason workouts and trade talk. Once the Bengals get a report date for workouts, it will bubble again. The opening of the trading period, the start of May camp, the start of June camp, the start of training camp – if they exist this season – would also ignite an onslaught of No. 9 headlines.

But right now the CP Question seems to be about 2.5 stories per week. The story hasn’t moved much, except everybody and anybody without a name is saying Palmer is going to retire if the Bengals don’t trade him. Even though two weeks ago at the NFL scouting combine the Bengals said they believe him and are planning like he’s not going to be here this season, the stories keep coming as if the team needs convincing.

But the Bengals have offered all sorts of evidence they are headed that way. Reports have had the Bengals at the campus workouts of Cam Newton and Ryan Mallett and NFL.com reported the Bengals are one of eight teams that are going to work out Newton privately.

And since the Bengals haven’t backed off the Jan. 24 Mobile Doctrine about not trading Palmer, it is what it is. That would mean if teams are calling now to say they’re interested, the Bengals would say, “No, thanks. If Palmer plays in 2011, it will be for us.”

Stalemate.

But the Palmer Question not only mirrors the inertia of the CBA talks, it hinges on the talks. Even if they wanted, the Bengals can’t trade him. Not only that, they can’t bring in another quarterback to get him ready until the CBA is resolved.

The union wants to open all the books. The owners want to open some of the books. Palmer wants to close the book. And while the Bengals would like to keep Palmer at Paul Brown Publishing, that book doesn’t appear to have an ending yet.

Stalemate.

In book stores today until…


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Posted in Hobson's Choice | 22 Comments »


22 Responses to “Stalemates”

  1. By jamison007 on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    Message to Palmer: all the true Bengal fans know how much you mean to our team. 6-0 in the AFC North in 2009, what an accomlishment! Yes, some fans are turning like benedict arnolds…but reality is, every city has moronic fans. What is unique about this situation though is that you obviously are coveted by MB and Coach Lew. So, now that ’05 is behind you and you are entering your prime years as QB, while your standing up to MB – don’t quit now, go all the way! Make MB and Coach Lew address the WR issues to YOUR satisfaction, get involved, call some shots, take more control and get tough on your offensive team. Why not give it a shot? Pick up AJ Green, do what you think is best with Ocho and lets rock and roll!

  2. By overthroensamoan on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    I feel we’re looking at worse case scenerios on both fronts. CP leaves along with a long lockout. I just hope they don’t panic and take Newton. The Bengal fanbase will not accept another Klingler, Akili Smith disaster. Surely MB has learned from prior mistakes and will not pull this franchise back to the gruesome laughing stock days of the horrible 90s.

  3. By 4stringking on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    I do like Carson Palmer. I mean his talent is undeniable. That said, the only way I want to see him under center fot the bengals is if he is going to finally show some fire and be more than a lead by example guy for this team. To be the man that is the heart and soul of the offense and of a football team, he can’t be so timid on game day. I want to see him chew guys out when they are giving less than he demands. I want to see him rant and rave on the sidelines and light a fire under his offense. The first time the guy grows a pair its to make trade demands. I can live with that. I want a guy who hates losing. I think he’ll step back and realize there is a ton of talent on this team and he will be free of T.O. and Chad. The team is his. He needs to embrace that and realize that he can make this team great if he chooses to do so. But he has to be a leader. A leader of men. A leader of football players, which is far different that being a leader in other sports in my opinion.

  4. By bengalpirate on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    I’m in total agreement with 007 and pray 6 times a day towards Canton that Carson will return for a least one more year and then perhaps so many of the distrations on the team are gone forever. Going into the 2011 season, once the CBA is ageed upon, I think the fan base will unite behind Carson and hopefully convince him to give the Bengals a second chance to prove our respect for him one more time.

  5. By hobsonschoice1 on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    I don’t think it’s Klingler they’re thinking about. The one fresh in the mind is Akili Smith. Like Newton he was a one-year wonder. Like Gabbert, he was a product of his system. But it doesn’t look like Newton is going to be there at No. 4.

  6. By mboals on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    I’ve supported Palmer since he’s been with the team and have the utmost respect for his ability. I truly believe this team has a good chance to win with him under center. I do think it’s time for Chad to go. He’s been a great talent but his antics are wearing thin on the team and the fans. What concerns me is that Palmer’s antics on this issue mirror Chad’s. Why get rid of one and still have one here. I’m disappointed that Palmer has taken this approach especially under the circumstances of the CBA. The Bengals can’t trade him right now if they wanted too. I also assume they can’t deal him as part of a trade during the draft to get additional draft picks. To me that would be the best case scenario for both parties involved. Trade Palmer to the 49ers, Cardinals or Seahawks. That gets him on the west coast with his family and possibly his college coach. I would think the Bengals could possibly get a 1st round pick for Palmer. Use the additional pick to trade with Philly for Kolb and everyone’s happy.

  7. By kaptkurt on Mar 10, 2011 | Reply

    The whole Carson Palmer debacle screams of “I’m gonna take my ball and go home” Don’t forget who gave you the $80 million you get to retire on. You can say its Mike Brown but at the end of the day, its the fans who pay your check. From all accounts, the reason we signed TO was to make you happy. (careful what you wish for because you might just get it). It’s terrible that some idiot threw trash on your lawn. The fans booed. Big deal. Man up and throw touchdowns to your teammates instead of the opposition.I promise you the fans will cheer. I hope you come around and have the guts to apologize to the fans and your teammates in Cincinnati for being such a big crybaby. Even then, this fan is going to have a hard time wearing the #9 again.

  8. By mwindle1973 on Mar 11, 2011 | Reply

    Newton, Gabbert? What about Mallett? I know he has the character issues, but all these guys have issues don’t they? He’s the best QB by far. Let’s just hope good sense prevails and we pick a defender at #4. Instead of Akili Smith, I’m thinking about Andre Smith. If we go to the well 2 out of 3 seasons at #4 and #6 and whiff we are screwed. THis year is so deep at some postions, you will find guys as late as the early 3rd round who may have went in round 1 in other years. But they won’t cost you even close to 1st round money. Really we’ve might have made a grave mistake not trading Palmer. This is the best draft in who knows how long, and we could’ve had 2 1st round and 2 2nd round picks.

  9. By mwindle1973 on Mar 11, 2011 | Reply

    Hobs: How will we afford to pay a #4 pick, and Palmer? Or a top free agent and Palmer? I know it will depend on the cap, etc. But can we really do that? I’ve been wondering. Because if you think about it, the whole situation hinges on that question. If yes, then Palmer has no leverage left to play now the CBA has expired. And Brown holds all the cards. If the answer is no? Then Palmer obviously held all the cards from the begining. Because all he has to do is show up at camp once we sign a QB, and we have to get rid of one. I would think we couldn’t afford it. Or it would greatly effect the roster. But then why would Brown put himself in a no-win situation? I guess there are things we could do. Like cutting Odom or another large salary. But now there is no CBA we can no longer make cap free cuts.

  10. By hobsonschoice1 on Mar 11, 2011 | Reply

    WINDY _ Remember, they’ve never had a chance to trade Palmer. And, right now, you can only trade picks for picks. Which makes the stalemate all the more ludicrous. How can you go into the draft not being able to trade players?

    As for the cap, we’re all guessing. One scenario is they play 2011 under the 2010 rules, which means no cap, a staggering contract at No. 4, and maybe an Akili Smith-like holdout.

    But if there is a new CBA, is the cap $115M, $140M or somewhere in between? A new CBA means a rookie wage scale, so there won’t be a holdout. It’s going to be a big number at No. 4, but not what it has been. As you know, this club isn’t going to sign a big money free agent, unless it is their own, cornerback Johnathan Joseph.

    Palmer has all the leverage. If the Bengals draft a quarterback and sign a quarterback, I’d imagine he’s on the next plane here to report and force the Bengals’ hand.

    But leverage or no leverage, the Bengals, at this point from what has been said, have no desire to trade him or take offers. So we can talk about it all want, but we might as well be taking a philosophy class and I gave that up after my last final sophomore year at the ‘Cuse.

    The Hall of Languages never looked so good.

  11. By 34inXXIII on Mar 11, 2011 | Reply

    hobsonschoice1: “Palmer has all the leverage. If the Bengals draft a quarterback and sign a quarterback, I’d imagine he’s on the next plane here to report and force the Bengals’ hand.”

    I made a comment on the message board about this just today. First of all, if Palmer pulls that power play, it will show just how disingenuous the retirement talk is emanating from his “confidants”, which would call into question anything coming from his camp. Furthermore, Mike Brown & Marvin Lewis get what they claim to want: CP as their starting QB. Additionally, they would not have to rush their rookie QB.

    From Palmer’s perspective, if he pulls any shenanigans or doesn’t make a sincere effort (which I wouldn’t expect, quite honestly), he risks his reputation and the respect of his teammates. Even with a sincere effort, the fans are going to be harsh until that time when and if he wins….alot. Should he struggle, the fans would only get worse with a loud outcry to send him to the bench in favor of the rookie.

    I don’t believe it’s necessarily in his best interest to pull this “power play”. Of course, if the retirement threat is merely a sham, he may not have a choice.

  12. By coachwine on Mar 11, 2011 | Reply

    Probably the same geniuses that booed Corey Dillon and TJ to motivate them of course had the adverse affect on our own quarterback. You combine a low percentage offense with horrible play calling and horrible fans and it’s not a good combination for a quarterback with a not so perfect elbow. Who would want to come back to that? You were a class act here Carson. Most of us will miss you.

  13. By mwindle1973 on Mar 12, 2011 | Reply

    Hobs: Thanks for the response. I agree with you, but can’t for the life of me figure out why we would proceed like we have without leverage. It’s insane! Therefore I keep examining it, because I believe that Brown is not that stupid. And indeed does have some kind of leverage. Just from an angle that we can’t see perhaps. At least I’m hoping he does! So you don’t think that Brown would play the ultimate gamble and pay Palmer and another QB for one year? I don’t put it past him. And that would be the ultimate leverage as well wouldn’t it. $15M probably buys you both QBs. There will be 2-3 teams that spend that on the QB position as a whole next year I’m just trying to find the angle here. Also, I might be misunderstanding something, but couldn’t we trade Palmer before March 4th came and the CBA expired? “Reports” (love that word) had the 49ers dangling a 1st round & 2nd round pick(s) to us merely a week after Palmer demands.

  14. By mwindle1973 on Mar 12, 2011 | Reply

    Maybe I can pick your braing about another issue? Goodell, continues to make a cryptic statement(s). I’m hoping maybe you can interpret what he’s getting at Hobs? He keep saying that “this matter will be solved by negotiations, not litigations.” Or similar comments. Like today he said after decertification that “they will get this done at the negotiating table”. Negotiations were already over! He’s actually driving me crazy with his mantra. What does he mean? I’m not sure if he’s being self assured or admitting the futility of the owner’s plight. It certainly seems we will be opening some books now doesn’t it? Maybe you can give a crack at solving Goodell’s riddle?

  15. By jamison007 on Mar 12, 2011 | Reply

    Tell me about it Hobson. I just can’t get over how dissapointed I am in Roger Goodell. Why send a letter to all NFL fans the first week of the new year promising to do everything possible to avoid a lockout and then completely whiff? If two weeks of negotiating wasn’t enough, they should have been negotiating since the Super Bowl.

  16. By mwindle1973 on Mar 12, 2011 | Reply

    Well now we have nothing to talk about but Palmer or the CBA situation. Oh wait the draft… :) I was reminded when reading Mel Kiper’s most recent mock that we still have the draft! I was also excited to hear he thinks we can trade down at #4. Of all the teams in the top 10 he said Carolina and us have the best chance to trade down. But we have to make the rest of the teams believe we are going to pick a QB. He suggested that us and Carolina start to project that we could very likely pick a QB. Well good thing we have. So now I need to adjust my prayer. From please pick a defender to please agressively pursue trading down. That would be a dream come true in this so far terrible offseason. Their are just so many good players out there. I’m about as excited by some of the second and third round prospects as I am the first round guys.

  17. By 303bengalguy on Mar 13, 2011 | Reply

    Palmer’s leadership on the field shouldn’t be questioned. I don’t like that comment. He’s got on guys cases and fallen on many a sword he didn’t deserve.

  18. By hobsonschoice1 on Mar 14, 2011 | Reply

    I’m probably the last guy to be expounding on the CBA. I barely got a B in Communcations Law that semester Cincinnati’s own Louis Orr went for 21 points and 15 boards in the Spectrum but the Orange still couldn’t fend off Iowa and Ronnie Lester in a Sweet 16 game.

    Here is what Goodell is talking about:

    The courts aren’t going to decide this. As in the players’ 1989 anti-trust lawsuit, the pressure of litigation forced the sides to negotiate the CBA that just expired, and the thinking is the same will happen here.

    It may take a couple months with injunctions and appeals but, Roger is right, eventually this thing gets hammered out at the table. If the NFL decides to play under last year’s rules (no salary cap, six-year free agency), you’d think the players will be doing what they can to block it or to get a new deal.

    As for Palmer, no one can question his toughness or his ability in crunch time given what he was asked to do in that offense. The guy has Jim Plunkett written all over him, a former No. 1 pick/Heisman Trophy winner/warrior who took his shots, had some bad years, and came back to win two rings late in his career.

    With a new coordinator and new receivers and a new mindset on offense, maybe, just maybe, this is the best place for him to start the comeback.

  19. By jamison007 on Mar 14, 2011 | Reply

    @Hobson, to add to your comment…I am hoping that J. Palmer gets the soldiers on our team working out and reviewing the new offensive playbook. I am hoping that we have even more soldiers this year than last. I am hoping for Caldwell and Cosby to lead a young receiver uprising on our team with Simpson, Shipley and #4 pick AJ Green. I am hoping J. Palmer gets really stoked about new playbook and passes excitement along to C. Palmer, which then gets C. Palmer thinking over the next couple of weeks about possibly 1 last year in Cincy. Then I am hoping that young receiver uprising humbly seeks out C. Palmer for secret meeting and pledges their allegiance to C. Palmer if he would come back for 1 more year. In the end, I am hoping either J. or C. Palmer start under center, making the other Palmer all that more jealous and motivated to get back under center.

  20. By mwindle1973 on Mar 15, 2011 | Reply

    I like the Plunkett comparison Hobs. Plunkett struggled a lot more early in his career than Palmer, but very similar. He never had a line until the end of his career. Palmer has had similar issues here since ’07. Wherever Palmer plays I think he’s going to come back with a vengence at some point. The change in offense will help. But he’s made it obvious that the mental and emotional distractions of playing for this team had a lot to do with his “offness” last season. The question that will have to be answered is can he renew his committment to the team and be at peace with us. At least to the point he can perform at his top again. I have no dobt he still has it. He had a couple great games in December.

  21. By mwindle1973 on Mar 15, 2011 | Reply

    One thing about the CBA that i notable though Hobs…is the fact that last time they sued in 90 (after disbanding in 89) and actually won that verdict. The same year Reggie White filed his class action suit that led to the eventual settlement. But a settlement did not occur until 93, some 2.5 years later. Also notable is the fact that case is still technically open. And because of that the players can move to have this sent back to Judge Doty’s on the basis that it is related to the still open case the once resided in his court. If they get it back in his court, this is a slam dunk for the players. Even if not it doesn’t look promising for the owners. Mainly because the lockout injuction is likely to be ruled for the players. There will likely be no lockout, because it is anti-competitive (violates anti-trust) and the UFL has an overlapping schedule with the NFL this year. WIthout the UFL it’s likely. With the UFL it’s virtaully certain.

  22. By 2ndboot on Mar 17, 2011 | Reply

    Go ahead Carson.. retire… You don’t want to be here and I don’t want you beating the Bengals so we;re even…Call it a draw, go home, raise your babies and enjoy life on your earthquake prone house built on the edge of a canyon and hope monsoons dont wash it into the ocean. Now..We still have Jordan and a young man named LeFevour.. Add a big arm QB in the draft or even Newton and let them slug it out in preseason..One of these guys has the gun and Gruden might just be the man to bring it out of him. Carson can go sit on the beach and watch 19 yr old string bikinis while Mrs Palmer pours steam out of her ears. I simply don;t care..I supported Carson to the teeth while he was here and now he wants out..end of story.

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